THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!!

As a Messianic JEW - I am really sad for all the people beat up over the latest paganoia myself. I am weary of folks using Jeremiah as proof text Scripture to say we are not to celebrate Christmas or beat up people who do!!!!! That Scripture was NOT REFERRING to a Christmas Tree people - READ history!!!! Christmas trees occurred centuries AFTER that was penned!!! If you do not celebrate - all good and dandy but please use solid research before you write articles wresting Scripture to wound and bruise!
Ask me how I REALLY FEEL??!!! After being told Thanksgiving was pagan, that our US Constitution is pagan - I have about had it with Messy - onic weirdness.

Wanita Panza | December 9, 2010 11:30 AM

There are others who can support the infiltration and corruption of paganism and how satan has used it to blind so many people.

Gerry Dedonis | December 9, 2010 1:33 PM

This couldn't be a more timely teaching! It is good to see someone trying to bring balance to all the (sometimes bloated) information floating around out there!

Trishia | December 9, 2010 1:44 PM

Thank you for explaining the series more, I am looking forward to hearing it.

Batyah | December 9, 2010 5:28 PM

Praise the Lord, sanity has come! I don't know what you have to say, but thank the Lord that you are shedding some light of truth into this subject. I am a believer, who has never felt the need to deny the celebration of the birth of our Messiah, even though the early church may have gotten the dates wrong. I had started many family traditions, to commemorate Emmanuel (G-d with us), with my small children, and when I entered the messianic movement, I was the ignorant one, who just didn't know any better. My children could not even mention the dirty word "Christmas", without much reproof. Yet I saw real ugliness in other children, cutting down all things Christmas. Brothers and sisters, this ought not be, there are many who have come to know our beloved Saviour, because of the story of the birth of Yeshua. And also, G-d created all languages, so why can't we say His name in our own language, I think it brings glory to him that every Nation will call upon Him in their own tongue!

Laura | December 9, 2010 10:41 PM

Thank you. A moment ago, I read of this issue. I tire of the Church burning mentality. More flies caught with honey than with vinegar. Our agitation of those who worship Messiah, OOPs, I meant Christ (Gr.), is not aiding the betterment of all,including those, for whom the Messiah died. I'm interested in the media input, and may order it soon.

ELIYAHU | December 10, 2010 5:03 AM

I am really hesitant about this set. It seems you could show more info before purchasing. The way this comes across as the terrible saying of "throwing out the baby with the bathwater". My family has close ties with people that dye their eggs red and any pagan will tell you about easter. It is in no way a myth that easter is completely a fertility festival. (an egg laying rabbit? really?) I actually own pagan books that detail this... not as anti-Christian but as a pagan to pagan tutorial. I am concerned where you are going with this.

**Toby's Response:** Jericho, thank you for your comments. I would encourage you to get the set and listen to it. I do not suggest that their aren't any pagan roots to any of the customs associated with Easter, but they are not linked to Isthar. That is a false etymology. I can assure you that I do not throw out the baby with the bath water but I try to approach this with balance and scholarship. Where there are pagan roots I discuss them, but where there are paganoia myths, I try to bring correction.

Jericho | December 10, 2010 9:00 AM

A friend recently said to me, "The insecurity that permeates the Messianic community is staggering" I have to agree! What I do love the most about FFOZ is that they avoid reaching into the chest cavity of believers and yanking a persons faith out of their being! Building a bridge to and from the beginning and the end of this amazing miracle is what must be our goal. For nearly 6000 years we have all had both truth, and paganism...BOTH are walking with all of us into tribulation. Perhaps we should start walking together? Or, we could begin keeping the commandments and avoid all of the disharmony.

Jeff Morton | December 10, 2010 9:37 AM

@Jericho..I am with you. My background is in culture, religions and worship practices in the Middle East. Esp in the diff gods that were worshipped by the peoples that surrounded Israel. I think if one looks at the fertility worship they will see that Isthar was only one of the names this goddes went by and that there are pagan groups "still" worshipping her today. The egg on the Passover table was not there until the return of the Isralites from Babylon...why is that? Because of the fertility worship they had seen in Babylon through the fertility rites of the goddess. Ask any practicing pagan today about the worship of Isthar and they will be happy to tell you how she has come down through the ages and is still worshipped. I do know that there are many "fables" that have been passed down about Christmas and such but the truth needs to be exposed as well. What do we do with Christians who pray to idols and saints? Truth is truth and it should be told.

Sherry | December 10, 2010 9:48 AM

Come out from among the nations and be seperated. After visiting Rome last month I am even more confident that our LORD is asking us to follow His ways and forsake empty traditions. How will our children know where to put priority if we teach them so many special days? They go to university so quickly and at that point they must already be able to define their G-d. Multi tasking with holy days is pointless. The birth of Yeshua is not the full message of Salvation- only part. To walk out the Christian life you must know why you accepted the birth of Yeshua as truth.

Kristi | December 10, 2010 10:02 AM

Read THE TWO BABYLONS by Alexander Hislop. The quote from Jeremiah may not be 100% spot on re: the Christmas tree but Jeremiah 10:2 "So says Jehovah, Do not learn the way of the nations..." doesn't leave much up to discussion. The Christmas tree, yule logs, sun worship, Easter eggs etc are all pagan. Its either of HaShem or its of the enemy. Plain and simple. All of the Catholic holidays are pre-existing pagan holidays and the Romans wanted to amalgamate the pagans into the Church so pick Saturnalia/the winter solstice and lets call it the Messiahs birthday. I cannot honestly believe why people who call themselves Messianic Jews would want to have anything to do with these abominations when the Feasts of the Lord, Hanukkah and the other traditional times appointed by HaShem exist. God has a problem with this stuff and it once got the Israelites a 70 year trip to Babylon. [Sacred Name removed and replaced with HaShem]

***Toby's Response:*** I address Hislop's book in the study. With all due respect to him, a lot of his theories do not hold up under scholarly scrutiny. Once again, I would encourage everyone to listen to the series before you speculate as to what I actually say.

Kent | December 10, 2010 10:14 AM

I have been a Christian 37 years. The last five, I have been Messianic. Don't call myself a Christian anymore, accept in Christian circles....G-d forbid! I have learned much since in this movement. But let me tell you, all the infighting among the Messianic (I am going to say it!) denominations nearly caused me to throw in the towel! Ever heard of Norm Franz? His paganism teaching links EVERYTHING to ancient Babylon, and pretty effectively. Caused me and my husband to finally bite the bullet, and get rid of all our Christmas decorations, especially BEFORE my trip to Isreal --- did not want to walk in the set-apart land with idolatry in my closet at home. Though I give G-d all the glory, and praise His mighty name for bringing me revelation about the truth of the Messianic Way, I have never had more fear and confusion, and have never been as immobilzed as I have been since in this movement. Sorting eveything out has been incredibly painful. I for one am going to purchase this set.

LeeAnn Blue | December 10, 2010 10:16 AM

We are very happy to hear about your teaching on this controversial topic. We do agree that maybe you should have given us a bit more information about it. Maybe just a 'little' information on where the Christmas tree or Easter eggs originate. Or who are some of your academic sources? We have heard the red egg stuff from pagan sources as well?? No matter what is pagan and what isn't in these traditions...the heart of the matter should be; are they Biblical and are we as believers acting with the love of the Messiah toward others who disagree with us.

***Toby's Response:*** Thanks for the comment. I do discuss the Christmas tree and the eggs on the CDs. I used a variety of sources for my research and sought to find the most balanced and non-biased ones I could.

Thom and Teresa | December 10, 2010 10:24 AM

Toby,
scholarly scrutiny does not trump the word of HaShem to Moses. Be careful that you do not cause men to stumble- the fear of the Lord!
You have the power with your position to affect many hearts- be careful.
You can always pull your book from the shelf- He wants you to teach truth, not conformity. Choose blessings! [Sacred Name removed and replaced with HaShem]

***Toby's Response:*** I use scholarship to try to figure out the origins of various customs and holidays. The Bible does not tell us the origin of these practices. I then measure what I find against the Biblical injunctions prohibiting idolatry.

Kristi | December 10, 2010 10:45 AM

My only hope is that you have also clearly identified the paganism (and falsehoods) contained within the Talmudic laws also.
Example; there was no miracle of the lamp burning for eight days during the Feast of Dedication, it did not happen in both the account of 1 maccabees and the writings of Josephus and others, it was 'added' by the Rabbis centurys later.

I have seen an 'over the top' leaning toward Rabbinic Judaism bubbling within the confines of FFOZ lately.
This is worrisome to me personally and many others.

My question, do you deal with the falsehoods within Judaism equally?

***Toby's Response:*** Yes, this is a comprehensive study. I deal with the theory that many rabbinic practices are pagan. As for the supposed myth of the Hanukkah menorah miracle, please see this blog:http://dovbear.blogspot.com/2010/12/in-defense-of-chanukka-miracle.html#more

I even address scholarly theories that there are things int eh Bible that were borrowed from Paganism. For example scholars say that the fall festivals Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, and Sukkot can all find their parallels in Ugaritic fall festivals. It has even been suggested that practices such a circumcision, the sacrifices, and laws of clean and unclean were inherited from the surrounding nations.

B Howard | December 10, 2010 10:47 AM

You're a brave man Tony. Bless your heart. Sometimes we get caught up in "things I dont believe in" more than "what I believe in" and we tend to argue about non-salvation issues. I am a firm believer though that we need to have our ducks in a row as far as our traditions and "ordinances" etc.. There ARE many parallels with ancient cults and their gods such as Mithra, Tammuz etc that have to be explained. Too often I find atheists and agnostics that use these issues as reasons to avoid coming to the Messiah. I was one. I was raised a Jehovah's Witness, then we drifted into Mormonism then ended up in New Age garbage. It took me years to settle into a Messianic Judiaistic kind of theology that focuses on the Word of God and distrusts anything added to it by men. I am now exploring the Didache in an effort to get back to the early Church's practices... Thank God for the Ruach HaKodesh to lead us through this..

Kent | December 10, 2010 12:04 PM

In beginning to search out the Hebrew roots of my beliefs, I read all the negatives - the holidays, church steeples, even words used in prayers and hymns. But I have never witnessed anyone up on a church roof leaving an offering to a steeple. Neither had I ever seen anyone bow down before a 'Christmas' tree.
As to the dates of the holidays, yes, the church chose the solstices and equinoxes - the people would not give up their pagan festivals, so the church opted to remake what they were celebrating. But once something is instituted, it is not easily reversed.
Which came first? paganism or HaShem? If everything made was 'good', then paganism is a distortion of truth. My opinion, of course, but I think it instructive to keep any nuggets of truth and discard the distortion.

Pam | December 10, 2010 12:06 PM

This is one of the...biggest....things about...knowledge. It can get really confusing, chaotic and create constant division. We all have 'our' own bias and it is very difficult to..APPEAR.. just and fair and unbiased because..Isa. 64:6. Even in this I know someone will disagree.

So how do we really overcome, I would SIMPLY SAY.....Trust & Believe....that......a Father...... who OVERWHELMINGLY LOVES HIS children......WILL NOT NEVER...LET....them perish....if HE COULD HELP IT!...(SMILE/LAUGH)

The WEIGHT of THAT is 'MORE' on HIM than on us, AND HE HAS ALREADY CARRIED IT.. EVEN BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

With regard to the CD set, Why don't you/we 'ask' Father HaShem if 'we' should purchase it, Is there anything in this for me to KNOW, because 'my people (we) perish for a LACK of knowing' (my interpretation). How are we to find out? YOU DECIDE!!!

Pro 11:1 A false balance is abomination to HaShem: but a just weight is his delight.

FFOZ keep pressing on!

[Sacred Name has been replaced with HaShem.]

Keith | December 10, 2010 12:35 PM

I wonder: is a can of worms kosher?

By taking on this issue, FFOZ will be putting a finger precisely on a major fissure in the Messianic movement.

There is a segment that are 'sola scriptura' when it comes to religion; another segement is not afraid of tradition.

We Gentiles have brought our presuppositions into the movement. Since we come from different religious circles, our paradigms still persist.

Steve Petersen | December 10, 2010 1:29 PM

"You shall know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free."
The Truth being, Torah -the Word of HaShem. Truth and Life.
HaHSem is quite clear about not taking on the pagan ways of the nations.
He also hates "mixture". Look what happened to two of Aharon's sons.
When I came to believe in Messiah the first Tradition of Man to go out the door was Christmas (no-one had to tell me) and the next was Easter which I replaced with the true Commanded feast of Pesach (Passover). So, if we are truly listening and have a hunger for the Truth HaShem's Ruach haKodesh will lead us in the right direction.
I would also like to suggest to those who have left comments, please do a search and check out the roots of the Gentile church in particular "Constantine's Creed". Also Rev 12:17, 14:12 which Yeshua left with us through John.
Toby, "What about Paganism" sounds interesting but I find the cost a bit prohibitive getting it here to N.Z. what with the exchange rate and the freight. Not to worry. B'rakha

***Toby's Comments*** Lynne, if money is an issue please send an e-mail to feedback @ ffoz.org addressed to me and I will help you out with our Corner's of the Field fund.

Lynne Scheidegger | December 10, 2010 3:24 PM

I believe Paul/Shaul covered this topic pretty well when he said to new (Gentile) believers, " I have determined to know nothing among you but Jesus Christ and Him crucified." and that "everyone should be fully convinced in his own mind." We are all in different places in our walk. I am amazed at the longsuffering of our Lord. He will guide us into all truth, remember?

Carolyn Dow | December 10, 2010 4:10 PM

I am glad FFOZ is addressing this. Some folks in the Messianic movement have been overly harsh in their criticisms, and too often we've relied on junk scholarship to discredit Christian things.

That said, I'm concerned FFOZ is swaying too far to the other side, all but giving the thumbs up to things God led us out of long ago.

But, I'll reserve my judgment until I go through the materials.

Have a good shabbat.

Judah Gabriel Himango | December 10, 2010 4:18 PM

I never knew, for 40 years, that Jesus was not His real name. I did not know, for 40 years, that His real name is Yeshua. I did not know, for 40 years, that Yeshua is the "Word of God made flesh". Ten years ago I learned my Savior is Jewish, He lived Jewish ways, kept His own holy festivals, walked and talked in His father's commandments and commanded us to imitate Him. The traditions of the christian world is not the traditions that Yeshua kept. Even if they are blown out of proportion the man made hol i days that the world keeps do not belong to our LORD, and He never kept them. So if we want to be like Him, let us keep our Father's traditions that He gave us. They tell us of who Yeshua is, and what He has done, and what He is going to do in the future. I would rather spend one day in the courts of HaShem than a million in the palace of those who do away with all His traditions and keep those of any other god.

Annette | December 10, 2010 7:41 PM

Toby,
I am really looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this topic. I'm always put off by some of the rhetoric that surrounds the these topics, not because I don't agree with the ultimate premise, but because some of the "facts" used to bolster the arguments are so off-base, they diminish my stance into a caricature. And mabye, (just maybe) I may be guilty of spewing some form of that rhetoric myself! EEEk! Thanks for doing this! Shalom

Sue Lavey | December 10, 2010 8:16 PM

is this legalism-being politically correct-or are we walking in the Spirit? -are we a reflection of the Holy spirit by our actions ,words and deeds? are we helping change lives ? If we are about our Father's business- what about the friend, neighbor ,stranger in the grip of sin -dead in the flesh-We are the Light -it's about touching lives-it's about showing people who Yeshua is and that they can be raised from the dead -to know the love of G-d -Only the Holy Spirit can give us discernment and wisdom in all things that are of G-d- Walk it -Live it- Teach it! Everyone walks in their own revelation at different times-show compassion and patience to those who have some light and some truth. After all, it took me 30 years to know what is of G-d and what isn't!

sophia kingston | December 11, 2010 1:32 AM

I would be interested to know from what sources specifically you have collected your information. How do you know it is the truth?

**Toby's Response:** I use various different scholarly sources that are mostly secular in origin so they have no agenda either way. Most of the information is pretty well known and has only been distorted in the Hebrew Roots movement.

Karen | December 11, 2010 9:45 AM

It is amazing to me that so much is being said BEFORE anyone has listened COMPLETELY to what is being taught which means buying the CD set and CAREFULLY LISTENING. "This you know, my beloved brethren. But let everyone be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God." James 1:19-20 NASB. If I am hearing correctly some have issue with the idea of buying something before they know what is being said. If that is your issue then please contact me at jubileejdegitz@gmail.com and I will purchase the CD set for you. As for the rest...how can you discuss something before you have even given ear to what is being said? Is that not being quick to speak and slow to listen and the very reason why the words of HaShem and the life of Yeshua are so misunderstood? The Lord looks to the heart and if your heart desires to know the truth OR if your heart seeks to judge another which heart do you believe the Lord is going to listen to?

Jubilee Julie Degitz | December 11, 2010 12:38 PM

I have purchased other books not from this author which have one or two points right and then go off in weird directions. So I have one question for the author:: Does your book tell why Christmas is on the 25th of December? If you don't have that right, I am not interested.

Oh, what is right? Verily, you need to read John 10 where Jesus goes to the feast of Dedication and on the first day walking in the collonade of Solomon is asked if He is the Christ. He says basically says, "Yes." This occurs on the 25th of Kislev which is when the world received the Christ. Not the baby but the Christ and not knowing the day of birth, this was celebrated as the spiritual birth of Jesus Christ, Yeshua, to the world. When it was taken over and converted to the Solar calendar of the Roman world it was transferred from the Lunar month Kislev to the corresponding month December. As to Sundays as celebration that is a different story and is very spiritual.

**Toby's Response:** In the audio CDs I do address why Christmas is on December 25th.

Tom | December 11, 2010 1:54 PM

Too many comments and interpretations from too many sources make a soup of confusion. When you mix but a spot of black into white it becomes grey. Just like lukewarm, not cold neither hot. The Word is the truth and it should be simple enough for a child to understand and accept.
The Scriptures say a very small remnant has been kept. I honestly believe that somewhere on this planet there are those, without degrees and science and books, who know and have kept from the beginning the full Truth.
All my life I led a sinful life following church doctrine. After the change to TORAH and much pain, conflict and rejection I do not see why all the effort and turmoil was for nothing.

evette ferreira | December 12, 2010 6:00 AM

Toby... I look forward to listening to this series on paganism. Thank you for tackling this topic, and thanks to all the guys at FFOZ who put very good material together. I thoroughly enjoy the Torah Club CD's each time I listen. I don't always agree on every specific point, but iron sharpens iron and the points I agree upon and learn in more detail outweigh the points of disagreement tremendously. Thanks again, and I will comment more after listening and studying. --- EMJanzen

Erich Matthew Janzen | December 12, 2010 6:06 AM

No I have not listened to the CD or read the book as of yet. But I would like to commit on what everyone else is saying. Yes we need this. We all need to know the truth. We go to a church that beleives that Sunday is the Sabbath, this is them, not us but we do go there because we are trying to teach them so of the things that they did not know. They have now learned that Yeshua is the same person as Jesus. When we sing at praise and worship time we will put in Yeshua when Jesus is song. We have also been asked about that. We say the pray for the bread and wine when it comes around. People will us about that too. So some of the things that we do in church is helping them to understand. When we go to thrusday night bible study we will interject the Jewish roots of what they are talking about. Every stops talking and listen to what we have to say. We teach what we can when they can except it. Some of then did not realize that Jesus was Jewish and Yeshua is his real name.

Sandy Lee | December 12, 2010 3:17 PM

I would also like to say that I do not wish to step on someones toes at this church. The Pastor is new and has only been there for only 2 years. I send him our studies that we do on the Sabbath from Areil Ben Levin. He has been told that Christmas and Easter are pagen but he also knows that we are not going to condem them for that. This Christmas and Easter has been taught for so many years and that they beleive it is true is not going to be easy to convince them that it is pagan. We do this because we have to go slow in teaching them. We do not demand that they believe the way we do. Is this not what Yeshua came for to help teach us so that we can teach others. Was not the Torah teachers and Phrasis doing this kind of thing teaching the wrong thing to the people. Yeshua even said that they looked like white cepturcurs. Is this not the reason that they were against him so much because they thought he was teaching the wrong things when they were the ones doing wrong.

Sandra Lee | December 12, 2010 3:27 PM

@Lynne:

We have added an option to buy this as a download MP3. Here is the link if you are interested.

http://ffoz.com/index.php?target=products&product_id=372

Boaz Michael | December 12, 2010 6:06 PM

I believe that the origins of christmas & easter are truly pagan and that the names might be alittle different, but its still the same old demon spirits that have fooled so many for so long. As for Jer.10, The idea of carving an idol and bringing it into your home and decorating it with "silver and gold" is alittle more sophisticated mabey than just bringing in a tree with it's limbs still attached.
Even if the origins of these "customs" weren't pagan, the greatest tragedy
of all of this is that they have distracted the body of Messiah from the real feasts of the LORD. Which we are learning so much in greater debth and beauty. This helps us to know him in greater intimacy.
Yes I agree that we are not to condem or make another believer feel less "spiritual" because they have not caught the same vision. We are, as said earlier are all on this journey together and should let love be our motivation.

bruce | December 13, 2010 6:48 PM

Listen first. Comment later. The rest just takes up space.

Go for it FFOZ! I admire your willingness to tackle the hard stuff.

Carrie Micko | December 13, 2010 7:31 PM

Many of our nations traditional celebrations have roots in pagan worship... This is what Messianics typically are referring to, not specifically. The Christmas Tree may not be referred to specifically in Jeremiah 10, but it resembles the worship of wooden idols stationed inside decked with silver and gold. And the resemblance to any pagan worship is enough for me to respect Yah and stay away from. We are like rebellious children! Any excuse to have our way!

Linda | December 13, 2010 9:24 PM

I am excited about this CD set, and will be saving my pennies to purchase it. I got involved in the Messianic moment about a year and a half ago, but found myself really backing off after I was told by a Messianic that all the Christians are going to hell for keeping Christmas and Easter... and that the Passover is _*more*_ important than the Resurrection. I have a problem with that, and believe both events to be of equal importance. That said I ended up celebrating Easter this past year, because I know how, but don't really know how to celebrate Pesach. Also I was in no condition physically (recovering from major surgery that went rather badly) to clean all the leaven out of my house. Yes I studied enough to know about that part. While I still believe many of the teachings of the Messianic/Hebrew Roots movement and strive to keep them privately in my home I have backed off from fellowship and am quietly seeking G-d for a real Torah teacher to teach the way of Messiah locally.

Jan | December 14, 2010 12:36 AM

This continues my earlier comment (ran out of space). I just wanted to say I would like to see some type of children's ministry in the Messianic movement. Yes I know it is my (and my husband's) responsibility to teach my children, but I cannot teach them something I don't know.

Jan | December 14, 2010 12:38 AM

The important thing to understand is Christmas is associated with two lies. The first is that there is a fat man in a red suit that flies in the air with deer and gives gifts to people by going down a chimney before December 25th. How does he fit in some chimneys? Millions of parents tell their children every year that Santa Claus is going to give them some gifts. This is not a "white" lie. It is a lie and it is not the truth. Of course, children discover the truth and wonder why their parents lied to them. The second lie is Yeshua was born on December 25th. He was not born on December 25th and this can easily be proven. Elohim would never approve of any holiday that is associated with a lie. Jeremiah 10 is not specifically talking about a Christmas tree. However, some parts of Christmas is revealed in the chapter: Trees, silver and gold. There are trees involved in Christmas celebrations and much silver and gold ($450 billion every year).

Kennard Brown | December 14, 2010 5:56 AM

What is idolatry in the context of Christmas?

"For rebellion is like the sin of sorcery, stubbornness like the crime of idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of Adonai, he too has rejected you as king (1 Samuel 15:23 CJB)."

The above scripture is in the context of King Saul refusing to obey Elohim. This is a form of idolatry.

"Therefore, put to death the earthly parts of your nature — sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed (which is a form of idolatry); for it is because of these things that God's anger is coming on those who disobey him (Colossians 3:5-6 CJB)."

Idolatry is also a form of greed. Unfortunately, Christmas does influence greed. Some people lust for Christmas gifts so bad that they steal gifts from others. Many people get up early in the morning and stand outside for hours at stores on "Black Friday" so that they can get their favorite gifts before someone else gets them.

Kennard Brown | December 14, 2010 6:07 AM

It sounds as if this is the time for Toby's balanced approach. The nations rage and plot vain things against ADONAI and His Anointed. As the voice of eternal knowledge and truth, we have no need to imitate the lost masses and be alarmist or overly anxious. I appreciate both the balance being brought into the picture by Toby's approach as well as the calls and reminders for understanding and patience from some of those commenting. As the prophet writes: "He will feed His flock like a shepherd; He will gather the lambs with His arm, And carry them in His bosom, And gently lead those who are with young" (Isaiah 40:11). The nations are as a drop in the bucket to Him (v. 15) and as always, we must be clear, direct, and patient with others as He is with us. He will gently lead those with young. I look forward to hearing this teaching...

Daniel Hennessy | December 14, 2010 9:30 AM

Personally, I Can't wait to get the set. (payday is next week)
but the question I have goes beyond what is or isn't "pagan" about the current Christmas customs.
It is my understanding that the enemy is an impostor who can only distort what God has created. Since he cannot create, but only distort, I wonder what is was that God originally intended to be celebrated at the winter solstice time - Satan is a thief and a liar, so what was/is he stealing from us and what lie has he been promoting with the pagan practices. In other words, what came before the pagan celebration?

**Toby's Response:** Good thoughts, Elizabeth. The rabbis address thsi very issue and I talk about it in the CDs. I think you'd be very surprised by what they say.

elizabeth | December 14, 2010 9:58 AM

I would like to review the materials. However the conclusion that I have arrived at is that pagan adultaration of true Biblical faith is far deeper than the expression of festivals but in the very nature of God and his Messiah. Whatever the other associations the celebration of the arrival of an incarnate God, or indeed his death at another time of year, is contrary to the whole message of the Bible when all the mistranslations and uncontextual interpretations are dealt with. Having studied several volumes of Torah Club from which I have derived great benefit my main negative is the muted though clear support that Messiah had a literal pre existence as 'part' of God which reenforces one of the primary errors of the counterfeit faith, the Trinity. Deut 13 is clear that any promotion of a God or understanding of him that is not consistent with what both Moses and the Patriarchs knew and understood is to be rejected after careful and diligent research and investigation.

Vic | December 14, 2010 11:45 AM

Seek first to understand, then speak, to be understood. If you haven't listened to Toby's teaching, then how do you know what he is saying ??

I can't wait to listen to what you have to teach Toby !

Douglas Boyce | December 14, 2010 11:59 AM

I don't think Messianics are being hard on Christians, those that have come out from the church are only wanting to share the truth out of the love of the brethren. My family and I left the church where we served and have been Torah observant for almost 3 years. When I first told my Pastor these things about the law being alive and it was how we are to live as believers, we were called legalist, jews, backsliders etc... We were even told to not step back into the church. Even to the point as to being disowned by our own families and friends in the church. They could not understand our love for his Torah.

The funny thing is that the pastor whom I used to serve has slowly been coming to the same conclusions about the truth that I spoke to him almost 3 years ago. The sad part is that he will keep it to himself and remain in the closet. He is very afraid that if he He said , " At the end of the day, I still have to provide for my family and make a living." This broke my heart.

Wen | December 14, 2010 3:04 PM

He is afraid that he will be rejected by his peers and many in the congregation. His situation reminds me of the rich young ruler. He felt he had so much to lose if he was to follow our master Yeshua.

My story is not uncommon as I've heard many who have left the church to become Torah observant go through the same thing. I came to my decision to leave the church after learning of things that they don't teach you in bible college. After studying church history, I understood why the Christian church believe the way it does and why there are anti-semitic sentiments in it's teachings.

Shalom

wen | December 14, 2010 3:17 PM

I am looking forward to receiving this study. I want to thank FFOZ for remaining that constant in what can be a confusing world. When I was first introduced to the Hebrew roots movement, I was given an enormous amount of information about pagan roots. However, as I have continued to study and seek HaShem truth, much of what I received has been discarded and more is being revealed. So I believe if we truly seek Him, we will be able to discern His truth and won't be swept away by the prevailing winds.

Robbie Dobson | December 14, 2010 3:36 PM

I believe what we have to do as followers of yeshua is to heed the instruction of Hashem when he says to us that we are to "meditate on his Torah day and night, that we may observe to do according to all that is written therein." After doing this will we be able to discern what Hashem's truth is.

When sharing with my Christ brethren about the truth they are either in denial of the truth of Hashem's word or just plain deceived by what the Church teaches. They put their faith in man's teaching rather than the scriptures. And they go on to say that they will pray about it and let the Holy Spirit lead, they don't seem to get the picture that the Holy Spirit would never be in opposition to the Torah. That's why the scripture is correct in admonishing us to test every spirit, because the Holy spirit that they claim to follow may not be the Ruach Ha kodesh at all.

I think it is more than just paganism that plagues Christianity but also bad doctrine that is rooted in anti-semitism.

Wen | December 14, 2010 6:20 PM

Beloved, it's time we ALL come together, let the Spirit of a Holy G-d lead us into His true light, and walk with HIM. We can't do that through arguments (scholarly or otherwise) and please Him. We should be that "one new man" in Him. Are we as Rabbi Shaul (Paul) instructed the early believers to be, "circumcised in heart" rather than fulfilling a fleshly, outward act of circumcision to please the Jewish Rabbis who laid down the criteria for becoming members of the congregation? Paul took a very balanced view when it came to creating oneness, or unity, among the brethren.
True, the "Church" didn't get it right, nor did the Jews, concerning Torah fulfillment. And, arguments are ongoing.
The larger question for us as Messianic believers is: Are we offending our brethren in matters of speech, eating, observance of tradition, doctrinal differences that don't add to our salvation, or in other matters? I believe we need to weigh our words and actions in light of eternity, and love.

Sue Rogers | December 14, 2010 7:30 PM

No nimrod fest, but ways to find God are truly mysterious, we were one, we are one and we will be one.......ever and ever...forever..

Carlos Jara Saez | December 15, 2010 5:36 PM

When you read the ancient historians, and even medieval historians you see where the Christmas tree and it's roots spur from. Although it was not always a pine, the Germanic tribes (responsible for the largest migration of Indo-Europeans in modern day) took the worship of trees very seriously, particularly the oak. Germanic peoples took their worship of trees all over Europe (refer to Donar's/Thor's oak as well as many other sacred old growth trees all over Europe). The Germans were some of the first europeans to convert to christianity and some of the last (Teutonic crusades). The Holy Roman Empire also used the tree as a marketing tool to bring pagans into Christianity. Although there is no single date when this happened, as it happened over hundreds of years, the church DID use the tree to convert pagans. The point of all this is is that the christmas tree is an ancient relic used by pagans to worship dieties. Wrong? I believe so...

brian | December 16, 2010 11:24 AM

For those saying the Christmas tree isn't pagan...

We all know God works in mysterious ways, but so does Satan. The difference being God doesn't try to deceive us. The Christmas tree (although revered in many ancient pagan religions) is a symbolic relic passed down from ancient germanic/nordic peoples who practiced the worship of trees (refer to Oak of Woden/Thor/Donar). Are we to bash christians who celebrate christmas? no. I have never actually been in a situation, nor seen other messianics in a christmas bashing situation. Typically it's the other way around. Perhaps there are circles elsewhere wherein christmas bashing occurs. Please don't go too far in the open arm business, lest we become enablers for pagan practices and revert once again.

brian | December 16, 2010 12:57 PM

Steve Petersen made me laugh with "is a can of worms kosher?" Well, maybe not but ridding your diet of that "can" sounds kosher!
Toby, are you planning to publish this material in print? I really like to have something I can check references on and mark up as I study. Or do you have a printed bibliography to go with the CD? Thank you and Shalom,
Jean Ellis

***Toby's Response:*** Not at this time, Jean. Sorry but I do quote and mention some of the sources I use in the audios.

Jean | December 16, 2010 1:43 PM

Vanity of Vanities all is Vanity.

Josh Thompson | December 16, 2010 8:44 PM

Its really quite simple. Stay in the Word and prayer. If it says in the Word to do something, do it. If His Word says don't do something, don't do it. If it is not in His Word, why do it? No confusion or anxieties, no having to come up with a scholarly reason or answer. Wow, His yoke really is easy and His burden light. Shalom.

Yochanon | December 17, 2010 8:36 AM

Toby:

The Day of the Lord is at hand; and so is the "New Jerusalem", I doubt the observerance of these "Holidays" (pagan) will be continued in the "New Kindom" to come. Nothing you say to tell me these holidays are "not pagan" in origin you will not convinence me. Because THEY ARE. I am not here to bash people who enjoy celebrating these "holidays". But there is no room in MY life for them. Jeremiah 10: verse 2 IS relevant! The "Bible" is a book written in "Past, Present and future". And what is written in the past relates to our future, because history keeps repeating itself. This repeating of history will stop when Yeshua comes, and finally puts a halt to all evil, and then brings his bride/people and the city of "New Jerusalem" to earth!

***Toby's Response:*** What makes you so sure I say these holidays are completely OK and encourage their observance? Have you listened to Cds?

Naomi | December 17, 2010 2:01 PM

Shalom Toby,

In the ten plus years that I have known you, I have watched you be very methodical and even handed in your attempts to learn or to teach on a given subject. It is because of this that I will take the time to listen to your teaching series on paganism. My only hope is that you do not kill off too many of the sacred cows that I have come to accept. Including some that I may have learned from you.

Shalom, Jeff

**Toby's Response:** Thanks, Jeff. I think you will be pleasantly surprised with the teachings.

Jeff | December 17, 2010 11:08 PM

Hello Toby: I finished listening to your latest teaching last night. It is so true that we are not to judge people who observe pagan holidays. It also true that Elohim did not desire to convert the nations before Yeshua's death. You quoted Deuteronomy 4:19 (I think you stated Deuteronomy 4:9 in the audio).

"So, since we are children of God, we shouldn't suppose that God's essence resembles gold, silver or stone shaped by human technique and imagination. "[In the past, God overlooked such ignorance; but now he is commanding all people everywhere to turn to him from their sins]. For he has set a Day when he will judge the inhabited world, and do it justly, by means of a man whom he has designated. And he has given public proof of it by resurrecting this man from the dead (Acts 17:29-31 CJB)."

Elohim is not overlooking the ignorance of the nations anymore. He desires all of mankind to repent and obey His Torah (Isaiah 66:22-24). I will continue this in another e-mail.

Kennard Brown | December 18, 2010 7:12 AM

"Here is the final conclusion, now that you have heard everything: fear God, and keep his mitzvot; this is what being human is all about. For God will bring to judgment everything we do, including every secret, whether good or bad. [Here is the final conclusion, now that you have heard everything: fear God, and keep his mitzvot; this is what being human is all about.]" (Eccl 12:13-14 CJB)

I liked the way you ended the teaching. We must all avoid the spiritual idolatry of money, celebrity and fame; television. If any holiday has any elements of spiritual or physical idolatry-if it violates Torah, then we should avoid it.

"So then, anyone who knows the right thing to do and fails to do it is committing a sin (James 4:17 CJB)."

If someone does not understand what they are doing wrong, then it is not sin (Luke 12:47-48; John 9:41 CJB). Our goal as believers is to teach & correct not to judge those who desire to know the truth.

". . . your Torah is truth." (Psalm 119:142 CJB)

Kennard Brown | December 18, 2010 7:36 AM

From the moment I received my wake up call during the fall Feasts of 2000 the Spirit of Yah impressed me with observing His Sabbath and Feasts and to stop observing the pagan ones. He took me into an intense study of His Torah and later to do more research on how Christianity and Judaism have adopted various pagan traditions. One of the first things I did was throw away my large collection of Xmas decorations that I had accumulated through the years.
He will not have His children mix the profane with the sacred. No matter how many layers of 'righteousness' you coat an essentially pagan tradition with, it is still pagan at its core. Yah calls this lukewarm and we all know what Revelation has to say about the lukewarm assembly. Compromise, contrary to political correctness and the one world /one religion movement, is wrong. Yah is not a compromising Elohim, He shares His glory with nobody, including the sun deities from which a lot of the festivities of the world come from.

Shoshanah | December 21, 2010 11:45 AM

Can't wait to "study" your teaching. The message seems to be: How I choose to live out Torah is between HaShem and me, and don't fight with my brothers and sisters. Leave the judging to Him. Thanks for your diligence in this area. As usual, you and FFOZ are right on the mark.

Joyce | December 24, 2010 1:44 PM

I was trying to listen to the whole set before making any remarks. The information is phenomenal. Though I have only heard the first disc. I enjoy how Toby simply listed verses in the Torah that discuss idolatry, and then gave a traditional interpretation with extra comments. How is it that a level-headed teaching like this is (1) so hard to come by in the first place (kudos to you guys for producing it), and (2) met with criticism (often outrageous) without even being heard. it saddens me. i hope that more people will listen to the set before speaking about it.

Cliffster | December 27, 2010 12:23 PM

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you Toby, for bringing such scholarship and sanity to a very divisive subject! This was long overdue and I hope that everyone will listen to all the cds! I also studied diligently about the pagan roots of Christmas and every year prayed to God to show me if in any way my celebrating his birth was grievous to him as I never want to do anything that would hurt Him. Every year I had a total peace about it, and finally after about 6 years of doing this, I not only had a peace but I had a joy about it and multiple confirmations that not only was He not grieved that I celebrate His birth, but he wanted me to enjoy it to the fullest! And I have ever since and what a relief and burden lifted to have a rebuttal to all the mean spirited Messianics that have tried to condemn me and spoil it for me! One person was so mean to me about it, that I believe God was far more displeased with his actions than He ever would be with me for celebrating Christmas!

Sara Bumgarner | December 30, 2010 7:26 PM

My husband and I purchased the set, and listened to most of it in a day! To be honest, most of what you talked about I already agree with and do. Mostly because it was the way my family did things, but also from my personal relationship with Yeshua I have come to have a balance of my Messianic beliefs. Thank you for your hard work compiling and researching all of this information! It helped to put some facts to the beliefs that we already had. And your work also helped expose some myths of paganism behind certain holidays; I was surprised at some of them! Excellent job Mr. Janicki!

Haley | January 5, 2011 2:14 PM

I finally got to sit and listen to this in it's entirety. It's a good CD, some of the misconceptions you mentioned in the messianic movement are somewhat of a surprise as I've never really come across any hardcore "paganoia" messianics.

I was also very pleased with the usage of the word "rubbish" near the end of the lesson, it was a good time to put it in play indeed.

Brian | January 6, 2011 12:33 PM

Brian, you can thank HaShem that you have not had to deal with the ugly side of paganoia. We have at least 4 separate sets of friends who are vehemently paganoid and it is destroying them. The one couple was the most loving/caring couple we know. They have lost almost all their joy, and have hurt many people (friends and family) who love them (and scared those folk away from Torah).
We cannot thank Toby enough for this timely, balanced teaching. I am recommending the teaching to everyone we can. Even if we do not always agree with everything the guys at FFOZ say, we trust them. We have to learn to listen to others and ultimately make up our minds as Ruach guides us. And not “bash” everyone that disagrees with us. Happy are those who have not encountered the bashing.
I am overjoyed that we could have purchased the teachings in MP3 format. Postage for us Down Under, (Aus / NZ) often cost more than the resource we want to purchase.
Blessing and Shalom!

elishayva | January 7, 2011 6:07 PM

Shalom guys

i would just like to take this opportunity to remind you, of one of the great kings of Israel and why he line was not continued in the manner he would have liked .
Go and do an in-depth study of why [HaShem] never blessed king Solomon's line.

Be careful we are either for Him or against Him He finds lukewarm an abomination.

I agree there is no need to bash others for their belief but remember the opposite applies.
Kul Tuv

***Note: Sacred name replaced with HaShem.

urkyle | January 19, 2011 11:48 PM

This issue is definitely hard probably in any religious circles. Even I can't figure out which facts are right or wrong. And yeah, condemning Christians and even Traditional Judaism are quite hard to control, for me. I just can't help falling into that trap. Thanks to organization like FFOZ for keeping things in balance, as much as you can, Baruch HaShem!

jMo | January 24, 2011 1:43 AM