I'll take the stake right next to you and Toby and Daniel and anyone else who wants burn individuals on the stake of vitriolic anger focused upon the open pursuit of truth and dialogue. Pass the marshmallows.

Daniel Hennessy | December 14, 2010 11:31 AM

Good job Boaz. As we fight the anti-Semitism in the church we must also fight the church hating by many Gentiles in the Messianic movement.

Dr. H Bruce Stokes | December 14, 2010 11:36 AM

Boaz - Nice post. I got a giggle out of it, especially after I just finished reading the heated comments on Toby's post. I sense your frustration and will be praying for you and the staff. I'll try to refrain from posting any sarcastic comments... ;-)

Blessings to you and the staff.
-dh

Darren Huckey | December 14, 2010 11:43 AM

Thank you. I have been shocked by the hostile remarks.

Wanda Ferguson | December 14, 2010 11:45 AM

Once again a much needed call for balance from FFOZ. There are so many benefits and blessings from biblical admonitions to walk in obedience to Adonai and observe His set times, feast days, and celebrations. We need to present these benefits and let the truth draw people to the light instead of condemning those who are only walking in the light they have received. We must be those who shine light into darkness. Great job, Boaz.

Mel Sorensen | December 14, 2010 11:59 AM

I want to thank you for your comments. I wish I could afford to get Toby's teaching, but right now I cannot. I want to learn not condemn.

*Sherry: FFOZ has a program to help meet the needs of those that cannot afford the resources we offer. You can write to feedback@ffoz.org to inquire.

Sherry Grimsley | December 14, 2010 12:06 PM

Great post! I just preached the same last Shabbat!

Rabbi Matt Rosenberg | December 14, 2010 12:15 PM

Boaz,

Well said! Yasher Koach!

Rabbi Joshua Brumbach | December 14, 2010 12:16 PM

Call 'em out, Boaz, call 'em out!

Mike Miller | December 14, 2010 12:31 PM

great post!

Jonathan Roush | December 14, 2010 12:46 PM

Well said, Boaz!
Your comments are a great example of why I've come to appreciate the ministry of FFOZ over the years! Great balance and an obvious love for the Body.
Thank you!

David | December 14, 2010 1:06 PM

Hello Boaz:

I appreciate your desire to teach a balanced approach about Christmas, Easter and other non-Biblical holidays.

I just purchased your new teaching about paganism and I listed to the part about Christmas. Unless you mention it in other parts of the teaching (I will listen to all of the teaching later on), I did not hear anything about Christmas being associated with lies. The most obvious one is that there is a fat man called Santa Claus that goes down chimneys or quietly enters homes without anyone knowing and lays gifts by an evergreen tree. This lie is told by millions of parents every year.

Obviously, lying is against Torah.

Plus, as you mentioned in your teaching, Christmas is associated with too much materialism. I was severely hurt when I found out that there was no Santa Claus. This led to me seeking the TRUTH which is Elohim's teachings-the doctrines of Elohim (Psalm 119:142). I will continue this message in another e-mail.

***Kennard: Firstly let me encourage you to listen to the whole teachings...I would suggest in order. We are very methodical in how we present and there is an order to the material. Secondly, we do not deal with Christmas or any holiday on the level you mentioned--we've made the assumption that most people know that Santa Claus is not real.

Kennard Brown | December 14, 2010 1:13 PM

spirit of grace and truth, it's how HE rolls...

carrie hodges | December 14, 2010 1:22 PM

Great post! I am so tired of seeing people in the Messianic movement spewing hate because of different views about pagan origins.I want more truth about these things but in looking into this it seems like alot of people teaching pagan origins speak about how bad the church is,put x in place of Christ and then have nothing to do with the church,this is wrong.I do not agree with many things the church has done and I don't celebrate things that most of the church celebrates but I know that I will not be able to share truth about Jewish roots if I am on the attack.I will not back down concerning my beliefs but I have chosen to walk in love and understanding to those who do not understand yet.Sharing truth in love will open many more doors for me than using hate to share truth.It is sad that people have made up their minds about what FFOZ believes in this area before listening. Listen than share any disagreements.

Batyah | December 14, 2010 3:06 PM

Boaz! I am very thankful you have spoken in such a direct way as I believe the Spirit has used these words in direct way to challenge me. I am guilty of many of the attitudes you have spoken about above, which in hind sight, are now becoming easy to identify as non-messiah centered. Looking forward to hearing the rest of what FFOZ has put together in this study!

AJ Maynard | December 14, 2010 3:34 PM

When we condemn a teaching without listening to it (or wanting to listen to it) and when we accept teachers who will tell us what our itching ears want to hear (Hislop) without questioning, examining and testing their teachings and when we hold on to enmity, strife and conflict...well then we have just become everything we hate and condemn in the Church. And we seem to have done it in less than a generation...ironic isn't it?

Bill | December 14, 2010 3:54 PM

I've heard that witch hunts are pagan. Sarcasm too. I read that on some xeroxed leaflet I was handed at a Messianic conference.

Shays ben Avraham | December 14, 2010 5:45 PM

I am planning to download the series very soon. It means a lot to me that FFOZ is interacting with legitimate scholarship instead of relying on hearsay.
Keep up the good work!

Stacy | December 14, 2010 6:12 PM

Good post! Thank you Boaz for bringing this up. I agree with what I read in here and would love to get this material. I want to know a better approach to present the Truth to those around me without passing judgment, and the way the Master wants us to. It has been many years since our family stopped celebrating the man made Celebrations and started keeping God's Feast. At first I was very judgmental, but over the years the Master has been showing me that's not the way to do it, that love, kindness, respect and just living it is better than all the arguments I can bring. He also always reminds me that I was there before too, I just didn't know any better. I love your materials, and I love the heart of integrity and love that I see in them. Can't afford this material right now. Could I still get it somehow? Thanks so much! :)

**Isabel: FFOZ has a program to provide resources to those in need. If you would like more information wrote to feedback@ffoz.org

Isabel Undseth | December 14, 2010 7:00 PM

Thanks Boaz. I'm still a church-goer, so I walk a fine line. But church bashing, of which false notions of paganism behind every pew is often a part, is just destructive. Thanks for trying to build bridges. I look forward to listening to this series when I am able.

Jared | December 14, 2010 7:09 PM

English is pagan and I'm sorry but I can't accept your views because you write them in pagan English and not in paleo-Hebrew.

Izzy A. | December 14, 2010 10:02 PM

Here, here, Boaz. I have my set of CD's from Toby and can't wait to listen while I'm driving around town. Judeo-Christianity and Messianic Judaism cannot be either anti-Christianity or anti-Judaism.

Derek Leman | December 16, 2010 3:01 PM

Boaz you have hit the nail on the head. The paragraph in bold, and the one following it are exactly what has caused me concern over the years. That attitude doesn't produce good fruit, and scripture says you can judge a tree by its fruit. To base your beliefs on a rejection of someone else's beliefs is really a form of codependency, and when one of the parties changes or heals, it throws the other party into a tiz. FFOZ is bringing healing to the (messy) Messianic Jewish Movement, and that is throwing the codependents off balance. Granted, it is hard to hear you have made sacrifices and suffered for something you now find to be in error. Pride and self preservation kick in to try to save face. But the only real way to save face is to remove the blemishes of error that mar it.

@ Izzy A.: Sorry to write in pagan English. I'm just too rusty on my paleo- Hebrew. ;)

Carrie | December 16, 2010 9:38 PM

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!

As a natural Jew I am fed up with the wannabe Jews (and a few natural0 that get totally weird about Christmas and Easter.

I can't even use the term Messianic Jew to my fellow Jews as they think all of them are gentiles who want to be Jews who have NO CLUE about Jews! I now have to say I'm a Completed Jew who believes in Yeshua.

I even had one person say abortions in America are caused by these pagan holidays by allowing a spirit of Nimrod into our land! Even though Israel and Rabbis condone abortions in most cases and they are (aghast) Torah observant!

G-d is GREATER than a pagan holiday! He owns them now!

Rivka Shepard | December 17, 2010 10:02 AM

Shalom Boaz and all,
Touchy subjects are a problem for most of us westerners. We have never learned to disagree, passionately, in friendship. The Jews did this thousands of years ago, and can still do it today. I think a statement I learned years ago, as follows; "Any truth taken to an extreme becomes a heresy." applies to many of the issues here. Another aspect is that some today do not seem to understand the difference between; 1. What is needed to have your part in the world to come. Vs. 2. What is needed to have the best possible relationship to HaShem. Number 1 takes very little. Number 2 takes, essentially, everything. It seems to me that some teach they are the same, which then becomes hypocrisy and self-righteousness. Dr. Marvin Wilson once taught, and still teaches I think, that when we learn something new to us, we absolutely must not even begin to think that we are superior to others in any way, at least in our relationship to Hashem. Opposition is good. Keep on.

Jerrold R. Asal | December 18, 2010 1:33 PM

As a natural jew, I share the same feelings and concur with Rivka Shepard!

Patrick Lumbroso | December 19, 2010 8:57 PM

I would like to read the article "What about Paganism" . I have always heard from others of the jewish roots of christianity that christmas has its roots in paganism. Your article would be an asset to me. If you assit in this regard i would appreciate it . Thank you in advance and Shalom

Milverton Wanliss | December 20, 2010 6:00 AM

While I agree that moderation is in order within certain parts of the Hebrew Roots movement, I must point out that in this blog post several inflammatory, sensational charges ("superstitious," and "witch hunt") are leveled against the supposed bad actors in the HRM in a similar spirit to how they rail against the church. How does this advance the reasoned, mature Messianic Judaism that FFOZ wishes to advance, if one directs the same type of rhetoric at HRM that they direct at the church?

Justin Billing | December 20, 2010 10:50 PM

I see a response on a different comment but silence on the post and affirmation of the condoning of abortions. Shame on you all. It is obvious that your reason is clouded and you are in error. No Boaz you are wrong. I have purchased the teaching because I appreciate your ministry but stop this slide toward syncretism. Do this please before it's too late.

**Ken. With all due respect. I have absolutely no idea what you are referring to regarding condoning abortions.

Ken Soderlund | December 21, 2010 6:03 PM

Great Post!!! Its exactly what is needed to be said before we all wind up eating each other

Matthew Iannacone | December 22, 2010 7:31 AM

Generally good post. Great point that we cannot define ourselves by the practice of others. We see that a lot in Reform Judaism--one is hard-pressed to find particular details that positively identify them as a Jew, but they all know, "We aren't Christians!"

However, the last paragraph seems to slide down the scale several points in objectivity and balance. I think it is unfair to characterize all people who take a position against Christmas as, "superstitious people living in fear of the shadow of dead idols."

Similarly, the challenge, "Are you willing to take a balanced look at the facts ...? If so, get a copy of...", comes across as crass marketing, and even a little bit arrogant. None of the people who disagree with you could possibly have a viable position?

Finally, the worst of all, "If not, just post a sarcastic comment on this blog." Anyone who disagrees with you has nothing to contribute to the discussion other than vitriol and sarcasm? I think you can be better than that.

**Shalom. Certainly my post is not a collective swipe at everyone or as you put it "all." I use the qualifiers, "some," "a good deal," and "many." Additionally, the post was a general response the the hundreds of comments received to my colleague Toby Janicki's blog and series, "What About Paganism." Many of the comments were so rude and mean-spirited we could not even publish them. See his blog, The Scoop on What About Paganism. There is a difference between disagreement and honest dialog and that of assumptive, mean, rude, and angry notes written by people that have not even reviewed or considered the material.

Mishkan David | December 22, 2010 8:46 AM

>> Many of the comments were so rude and mean-spirited we could not even publish them.

That's disappointing to hear.

>> There is a difference between disagreement and ... assumptive, mean, rude, and angry notes...

I agree, this should not be the tone of discussion within the MJ world. I have no room for antagonism for the sake of antagonism, either. One of the elementary lessons given to every Messianic ought to include material from the Chofetz Chayyim on lashon hara.

Yes, you did use a number of qualifiers. But the warning tone of the para I cited implies that "paganoia" threatens to take over the movement. Thus, it becomes a sweeping statement, as I see it. There are lots of balanced, careful students, who come out strongly anti-Christmas.

The Messianic community ought to be able to express our distinctives of perspective and world view without resorting to reactionary rhetoric. I liked Jerrold's comment about passionate disagreement in friendship.

Mishkan David | December 22, 2010 9:23 AM

I can't say it is wrong to celebrate some Christian traditions but i do think people should study them, so I know what they are celebrating. December 25 was acually a Birthday to The sun god Not The Son Of God & the origins were very anti semetic. but I do beleive the meaning has changed over the years. I really think (at least from where i am at-Los Angeles CA) that Christian Believers have sincerily dedicated that day To the Lord so I can't really say it still is pagan. Again they should study the origins.

Keep in mind Kippahs & The Star of David has the same style of origins & we use them all time & our motive for using them are pure.

I know a Rabbi one who leadds a strick Torah-Biblical feast-Kosher- Messianic congregation on Shabbat & On Sunday he leads a Messianic/ Christian Fellowship on Sundays (At another location) where he incorperates both. Giving the Jewish Roots to The Christian Faith & I totally support that.

Word Millah | December 23, 2010 1:02 AM

Continued...

1rst Reason ) The intermarries. The percentage of Jews intermarring esppecially with Jewish Male & Asain Woman is at an all time High. My wife is Gentile & she celebrates my feast, so (even though I don't advertise it) what is wrong with me observing her feast. I wear a Kippah when we go to church with my Mother in Law & The Pastor & Elder's Love it. (I got one Elder coming to Passover with me in 2011-and I'm told this guy is not known to socialize with many people as he does with me).

2nd Reason) Due to the History Your always going to have Christian Churches (Note: Jews for Jesus is not helping us) Most Jews I am considered a traitor so they wont listen to me. How ever Like Romans 12, Gentiles (often Christian) are a vital part of jews coming to Faith. Most Jews (from where I live) will here some one who says they are Christian before a Messianic Jew.

Word Millah | December 23, 2010 1:14 AM

continued...

For example: I know a Black Christian Couple who invited there Conservative Jewish Friends to a Shabbat dinner at there house (When they told me they were going to do this I was very skeptical at 1rst) They studied how to do this by a book by Martha Zimmerman & there Jewish friends were pleasently supprised & a few months later came to Faith. Being they wanted to stay true to there Jewish Heritage My friend reffered them to me & I found them a Messianic Congregation & now the wife leads worship. So I beleive it has it's place.

I think the issue is when Christian Beleivers try to inpose it on us. For example did anyone see the Jews for jesus banner on there site that reads: "Christmas is a Jewish Holiday or it should be" That is where my concern comes in. (Don't get me wrong I have friends from Jews For Jesus, & they are very knowlagable & even some are Torah observant. but I just don't agree with there opproach-

Word Millah | December 23, 2010 1:26 AM

FFOZ has the most balanced, most scholarly, most accountable group in the messi-onic realm! Thank you for the great work! You have gotten me out of so much bad doctrine, I can't begin to tell it.
In defense of the teaching cds, I adore them because they present the rest of the story. There were facts I didn't not have before and desperately needed to make a truly informed decision. I was very paganoid at one time, but these tapes provide solid scholarship as to why I don't need to be paganoid, and I can be happy for my family members celebrating Christian holidays instead of wondering if it will be a source of judgement for them later. I really was taught it was no less than idolatry. My friends have also really needed this teaching because it was tearing their families apart, people resist change, and I am so glad to see them set free from the guilt and confusion and the pain of paganioa and into the glorious light of His grace, freedom and CHOICES that their families can stomach.

Melody Manwell | December 26, 2010 7:15 AM

We are still in a church but have been Torah observers for a couple of years now. We still celebrate Christmas but have eradicated the tree practice also we have never ever had santa practices at our house-even before we came to Torah he was wrong in our eyes. All the militant hebrew-roots people that condemn us for liking Christmas, I would give them their due IF the birth account were not in the Bible. It's a shame it's not recognized at the actual date, but the fact is- that it happened and it's recorded for us in scripture in two separate accounts and was prophesied beforehand. So when around Messianic friends, I feel like we have to keep in the closet about Christmas. I wish it weren't so. I loved the 'What About Paganism' teaching. I wish more people on both sides of the fence would be open to hearing it.

Kim Sanford | December 26, 2010 9:16 PM

@ Kim . Here is a very interesting article . No one is saying that it's wrong to celebrate Yeshua's birth on 12/25-The writer even says he celebrates Christmas on 12/25. But we should know how 12/25 became known as Yeshua's birth so whoever wants to celebrate it on 12/25 they have more of a foundation. I think you will like it.

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Christmas/christmas.html

Word Millah | December 27, 2010 1:06 AM

I think there is another issue at play here, and that is: Where is all this anger coming from?

My own conviction is not to celebrate Christmas, but at the same time I am very careful not to "offend" my fellow Christians about it. I have learned that I cannot even explain my reasoning to certain family members without causing tears, and so I avoid doing even this. Nevertheless, I think it is my right as a parent to raise my children the way my husband and I see fit. I go to visit family at Christmas because it means so much to them. Some of them seem intent on "assimilating" my young daughter into celebrating Christmas, and this bothers me greatly.

I must say that I can understand why so many Messianics have deep-seated anger over this issue. When it comes to dealing with other Christians, especially family, who celebrate Christmas while keeping one's own convictions, there is simply no easy answer. I myself am tempted to start avoiding family completely during December.

another Carrie | December 29, 2010 12:42 PM

As a Catholic who converted from Protestant world ( and was very sympathetic and drawn to MJ), I am glad to see such a balanced and well done teaching. It's sad so much hostility is actually based on junk history. I had given up even trying to argue online years ago this stuff is so embedded in folk's belief systems. So was glad to see FFOZ do it (sort of like only Nixon could go to China in the political realm). Anyway, bravo and took some courage too.

I completely support MJ's who don't want to celebrate Yeshua's birth with customs which aren't even mandated by the Church (trees, santa, whatever). However, I do think they can be used in an undeniably Christian way - an example would be a Tree decorated with Christian ornaments. I do think that somehow in the future it would be good for MJ's to come to grips with Christian Tradition in the same way MJ's are attempting to come to grips with Jewish Tradition.

Todd | January 9, 2011 9:01 AM

Look. [HaShem] said, "You shall know the Truth and the Truth shall set you Free".
As far as Paganism is concerned - [HaShem] hates mixture.
"Wannabe Jews" - From the Beginning/Aleph/B'reshit [HaShem] has always had provision for Gentiles to become one with His people. In the book of Esther 8:17 many people became Jews that day.
In the last book Revelation/Tav there are two scriptures which speak very clearly - Rev 12:17b those who obey [HaShem]'s commands and bear witness to Yeshua.
Rev 14:12 This is when perseverance is needed on the part of [HaShem]'s people, those who observe his commands and exercise Yeshua's faithfulness.
When we are truly One there should not be such a great difference of opinion. Lord Yeshua come quickly.
When I came to believe in the G-d of Israel He removed the desire to keep 1. Christmas, 2. Easter.
Please do a search on Constantine's/Constantinian Creed. You will be appalled. Blessings.

***Note: Sacred Name replaced with HaShem.

Lynne Scheidegger | February 2, 2011 5:23 PM

I too, have not heard this message but my former pastor purchased it and because of it, his Messianic congregation felt justified to re-establish the holiday of Christmas and the custom of Christmas trees. I couldn't/can't believe FFOZ would endorse such practices. I've completed HaYesod and I don't get that message from that course. Perhaps he heard what he wanted to hear. I'll continue to believe the best about FFOZ and the leaders anyway. May HaShem bless your work!

**Toby's Response:*** Randy, I would encourage you to get a hold of the set and listen for yourself. If you do, please let me know your thoughts.

Randy Mitchell | March 18, 2011 6:15 PM