I have mixed feelings about this. I care about the believers in Israel, yet I understand the position of the Orthodox and even agree with them on most issues. I am against missionizing Jews, mainly because it is leading them away from Torah and leading them into what I believe is clearly idolatry from a scriptural standpoint. On this, I agree with them. The way the NT has been understood (or misunderstood) and used in history makes it another religion and a book of idolatry...in a way. On the other hand, if understood correctly, these historical writings can be seen as kosher and something that should not be burned.

I have heard that Jews for Jesus is launching a huge missionary campaign in Israel this year. Groups like this are clearly guilty of what the orthodox accuse them of, in my opinion. I would stand with the anti-missionary groups in protest of Jews for Jesus and I would know I was on the right side.

Andrew

DTL Replies:
Really? Idolatry??! I'm not always a fan of the work of J for J, but I'm not about to endorse anti-missionary efforts. I do understand having mixed feelings, but I don't see the matter in such black and white terms. For secular Jews, J for J is often a first step toward relationship with God at all. "Whether in pretense or in truth, Messiah is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice." (Philippians 1:18).

Andrew H. | June 1, 2008 2:14 PM

Yes, [it] ... is idolatry. That is how I see it anyway. "Jesus made me kosher" is one of their slogans which translated means, 'I do not need the Torah now, I have Jesus' which is nothing less than idolatry.

Andrew

Andrew | June 1, 2008 4:56 PM

I should say that I also do believe that HaShem can use anyone or anything to bring someone to Himself. I know some good has come through J4J and the Christian church as a whole. That doesn't mean I agree that it should be endorsed or associated with as a religion. I am sure that men have also found G-d while meditating on a mountain or somewhere else while practicing another religion...in fact I've heard stories of those who have.

The anti-missionaries, most of the time, are not speaking against the true Yeshua, but instead are against the false messiah preached by christianity. Yes, I said false.

Andrew H. | June 1, 2008 5:08 PM

Correcting points theology is one matter, burning inspired texts that bear witness to the true King of Israel and the Savior of the world is quite another. Without the NT, you have no basis for your faith.

I challenge the notion that anti-missionaries are only speaking against a false Messiah. In fact, it seems that Torah faithful Jews who follow Yeshua elicit a stronger reaction from the Orthodox. Many anti-missionaries know that Jesus was Jewish, that he was faithful to Torah, that his followers were, the whole nine yards. Yet, demonstrations like this are still occurring. Whether the Jesus of Christianity or the Yeshua of Messianic Judaism, the cross remains a stumbling block.

Seth | June 1, 2008 6:46 PM

Andrew,
I'm confused. The way I'm reading what you say is that Yeshua is NOT the messiah? As far as I know every Christian church in existence today claims that Jesus, Yeshua is the Messiah, as well as everyone here. Did I misunderstand you?

jay | June 1, 2008 7:51 PM

Maybe I should be more clear. Do you say false messiah because of the way the christian church teaches how Yeshua did away with the torah? Thus, he would be falsely taught as such....the true messiah would never do away or teach the denial of Torah. Is this what you are saying?

Shalom.

jay | June 1, 2008 9:28 PM

christianity=false messiah, anti-missionary=real Messiah? The work of the Holy Spirit in family that came to faith in Christianity is obvious. Can you see it when it is shown? Making such a board statement as "the false messiah preached by chrisitianity" is foolish. That means you believe Hudson Taylor, Richard Wurmbrand, Dietrich Bonhoeffer were all preachers of a false Messiah. They are awesome big brothers in Messiah Yeshua in my book. If anti-missionaries are not speaking against the true Messiah, why do they twist messianic references and speak of them as if they aren't? Why wasn't Daniel Zion thanked and given the position of judge in Jerusalem's Rabbinic court in 1954? The chief rabbi, Samuel Toledano, offerend him the position.. Zion just had to keep his testimony to himself. He wouldn't stay quiet and was stripped of his title "rabbi". Don't let a root of bitterness with the Church take root, throwing the baby out w/ the bath water.

Jacob | June 2, 2008 2:19 AM

“Where they burn books, they will ultimately also burn people ..." or so the quote goes. May it never be!

It does, however, say a lot about the condition of the book burners' hearts and how difficult it will be to reach those stoney hearts and change them. "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Baruch HaShem!

Christianity's Messiah is not a False Messiah.

Shalom.

Crispin | June 2, 2008 9:05 AM

Daniel T. Lancaster said: "For secular Jews, J for J is often a first step toward relationship with God at all. "Whether in pretense or in truth, Messiah is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice." (Philippians 1:18)"

Amen.

Katia | June 2, 2008 1:03 PM

IMHO, anti-missionaries oppose the true Yeshua, and not just a false representation of him. Perhaps we have forgotten the "anti-missionaries" of the time of Yeshua and the early kehillah. As a Jewish believer, I am perplexed at many Torah Observant people not of Jewish background, who appear infatuated with the Rabbinic Orthodox of today, and seek their stamp of approval. Remember, these were the ones who dragged our spiritual or physical ancestors, as the case may be, out of synagogues, put them in prison or had them killed. These will do the same to us when they gain that authority, which may be in the near future. This is just step one; the next step is bombing property, which has already occurred and the final step is killing people, and the Ami Ortiz attack may or may not be an example of this.

One who rejects the living torah is equally in error as one who rejects the written torah, as the two cannot be separated. And one who truely believes Moshe would also receive Yeshua

Claire | June 2, 2008 3:14 PM

I don't always agree with everything or everyway the missionarys do there job, but, I hope that they are living it. As for Yeshua (Jesus), He made me kosher too and I do need the Torah! He is Torah for in the beginning was the word and the word became flesh and dwells with us.

Rick | June 2, 2008 3:20 PM

With all its dysfunctions and issues, I, for one am proud of the work of Christianity in the world and its amazing reversal of a pagan world into a world on the path of monotheism. Consider that before the rise of Christianity there were two types of gentiles: a pagan or a convert to Judaism. When Christianity emerged it offered a valid path for gentiles seeking righteousness outside of Judaism.

Jeremiah.

Jeremiah | June 3, 2008 10:01 AM

As a gentile believer in Jesus Christ/ Messiah Yeshua, who came to faith through the New Testament and who has learned to follow Him through the Word of God as preached and taught in the N.Testament.I take great exception to 'Andrew' and His rather bigoted viewpoint regarding the book which I consider to be God's word to me. Having just recently returned from Jerusalem and a visit to the Yad Vashem, I refer Andrew to a quotation which I noted in one of the displays there, I quote from memory and not verbatim, " THE NATION WHICH BURNS BOOKS MAY SOON BURN PEOPLE." This prophetic word was written in the mid-1800's!!
As a Christian from Northern Ireland I am very well acquainted with bigoted narrow minded viewpoints from both sides of the religious divide, I am saddened to find such thinking on a Messianic site. The Jesus I follow said, "I am the way the truth and the life, No man comes to the Father except through me." How does one find Jesus except through reading His recorded Words?

margaret simpson | June 3, 2008 3:05 PM

It is the Holy Spirit's work to "draw people" to Yeshua. Whenever I forget this, I can become jealous for God's work...much like the disciples when they saw other men (whom they did not recognize) casting out demons (do I remember correctly what they were actually doing?) Jesus reminded them to walk humbly.

As we come to know Yeshua, we must often remember who we were and/or could be apart from Him. He often has amazing plans...even using unbelievers. (ex. Pharoah) And we should rejoice whenever He is lifted up, while "proving all things" and "trying the spirits."

I think you are both right. Jewish people who are secular are more likely to enter the narrow way by first admiring the Cornerstone, and the religious (when they recognize their need for Messiah) will more likely enter the narrow way with more understanding of the foundation--growing to love the Cornerstone. Ultimately, we will all be like Yeshua, "when we see Him as He is!"

Danuta Lesko | June 3, 2008 4:38 PM

I see I got some strong opposition to what I said. Thats fine. I knew it was a strong way of saying what I wanted to say. Jay, I do believe Yeshua is the Messiah. But, the way Judaism defines the Messiah and his role and the way Christianity defines it, are in opposition to one another. Yeshua, in my opinion, fits the Jewish mold, NOT the christian mold. The christian ideas about the Messiah ultimately teach a false messiah, which is ONE of the main reasons why Yeshua is rejected by the Jews.

I don't like the burning of the books, but I understand it. If the J4J people would leave people alone and quit attacking them through deceptive tactics, maybe the NT wouldn't be being burned. I blame the missionaries for it really.

The Jews who are doing this are acting in a way according to halakhah no? Destroying idolatry in the land is a mitzvah.

Christianity has brought a TON of idolatry to the Holy Land. I was there, I've seen it.

Andrew

Andrew | June 3, 2008 10:39 PM

I should also point out that Daniel Lancaster and FFOZ 'hinted' at the idea that some of the main teachings in the church have been taught in the pattern of the anti-messiah. It's in the Light in the Darkness DVD.

Again, I am against the burning of the NT. But, I wouldn't object to the burning of all churches in the land that have idols in them and I don't object to stopping anti-Torah missionary work in the land...which means pretty much all mainstream christianity.

Andrew

Andrew | June 3, 2008 10:58 PM

... Is the Church perfect? No. in fact, far from it, but the same can be said for normative Judaism as well as Messianic Judaism. I honestly feel that Yeshua will set us all straight. You said that Christianity brought a lot of idolatry to the Holy Land and that statement is true. It can also be said, and is also true that Judaism has also brought in a lot of idolatry. I've had e-mails and letters that asked for financial support that really made me sick. I could gain health and wealth if I would just send in my money and then have someone pray over some dead Jew's grave and God would answer my prayers-wonder which came first, Christianities health wealth or Judaism's. There are also symbols that are from pagan cultures that are not godly, but accepted in Judaism. We are all screwed and I hope in time that we will allow the Ruach to teach us more and come into godly balance. We need it. Yeshua is the way. Period.

Colorado Woman | June 3, 2008 11:23 PM

The first heresy of the church was the rejection of the sages of Israel to administer Torah. The Pharisees of Yeshua's day did not "believe in him" necessarily. yet he still ordered us (his disciples) to obey their words (cf. Mt. 23). I am not aware of any rabbis "dragging" people out of synagogues...to my recollection they were Sadducees, who were corrupt and had fallen into idolatry. Think about it. Defending Christianity just because it spawned a Dietrich Boenhoffer throughout history or two is absurd. Christianity has NEVER been a disperate minority group of exceptional individuals, but has always been (since its inception) a major world religion composed primarily of Anti-Semites and idolaters who burn Jews and their holy books while praying to images of saints and abolishing the Torah. With so much information now available and with so much hindsight on the history of Christianity, it seems patently absurd to join the number of her defenders. What is going on here?

James | June 4, 2008 6:54 AM

Was the stoning of Stephen a mitzvah?

The real truth of the matter is that Yeshua has been a problem for Judaism since day one. I do not believe that this is any different than what was going on in the First Century...long before Chrstianity brought anything to the Holy Land other than the gospel. We are no longer in their synangogues so we cannot be thrown from them.

I do not see book burning as understandable, I see it based in hatred and intolerance. Are those mitzvot?

Also, we have to be careful. When we perpetuate the Judaism versus Christianity as an "us" versus "them" dichotomoy I beleive that we play right into the hands of the adversary.

Bill Beyer | June 4, 2008 6:57 AM

People often think that Judaism has this universal view of who the Messiah is and what he will accomplish. The messianic idea that is presented to Judaism today is based mainly in part on the Rambam's Mishneh Torah Hilchot Melachim ch. 11-12. Within this work, the Rambam clearly paints a portrait of the Messiah that is deliberately against the NT. Yet, this view of the Messiah, as given by Rambam, is not universal. Many of the tenants of Christianity in regards to their view of the Messiah can be and are supported from within ideas in Judaism throughout the ages. For example, a Messiah who will be called God; a Messiah who will die for the sins of the world; a Messiah who comes twice. The anti-missionaries often paint an image of the Messiah that veils classic texts of Judaism that agree with Christianity. JFJ deceptive?! At least they use the very rabbinic texts that the AM's brush under the rug. Deception? How about the AM's? They have pulled several away from the faith!

Brian R. | June 4, 2008 8:53 AM

It is unfortunate when reading the comments to this thread that there are some people in the Messianic community who will not be happy until all churches in the world are bulldozed to the ground. These kinds of sentiments will not work well for us in the future. While Western Christianity has its flaws, today over 75% of Christians are in the third world (not in the West) and often in places where believing in Yeshua is illegal or taboo.

Fortunately, these are not the thoughts of the majority of us. Many of us would not be Believers were it not for the spiritual heritage we inherit from the Christian Church. Just like anti-Semitism is a gross sin that many of us have repented of, so is much of the anti-Christian rhetoric we see in our movement an equal sin. They day when we arrive at a point where our shared Jewish and Christian heritage are equally appreciated is sadly a long way off.

We need to learn to be a part of the solution, and not a part of the problem.

J.K. McKee | June 4, 2008 10:37 AM

I would disagree that Jews for Jesus (or Christianity in general) can be the first step towards a Jew's relationship with God. The #1 doctrine of these groups is that Yeshua did away with the Torah (ie. fulfilled it for us), and now we're free. When these groups succeed in "converting" a Jewish person, they cut them off from their God-given heritage of the Torah -- the Torah which all generations of Jews are bound to. The Torah that brings them life for choosing it and death for rejecting it. They then indoctrinate the Jew until they're so "Christian" they wouldn't know the word of God if it hit them in the face. I have seen this happen and it breaks my heart!

I'm sure Jews for Jesus has good intentions... but we all know where that road leads to.

Aimee | June 4, 2008 11:03 AM

Rambam himself even stated that Christianity helped to spread monotheism. The testimony of Christians against idolatry and its associations is inspiring to me. During some research on a particular passage in the New Testament I came a cross some things I think you would find interesting. In a pagan document from Pliny to Trajan who (Pliny) was the governor of Bithynia-Pontus sought clarification from Trajan on how to deal with the Christians. In this document we learn the flowing about Christian rejection of Idol Food (which is an act of Idolatry).
That they were “inflexible” when it came to idol food
That they would not even eat meat sold at the market thus hurting the economy of the region. They were tortured and murdered for not eating even a single piece of meat that might have been offered to idols. Additional pagan writings come to testify that one of the characteristics of a Christian was the rejection of Idol food, thus the rejection of idolatry.

Jeremiah.

Jeremiah | June 4, 2008 11:50 AM

I would like to also add:

On a side note I have seen Hallah/kosher OU certified meat. To end I believe strongly that Christianity as Rambam states has helped spread monotheism, and is a right path for Gentiles seeking a way to God.

May He Allow us to see the days of the Messiah and the life of the world to come.

Jeremiah | June 4, 2008 12:26 PM

Shalom everyone. I have to get ready for the conference this weekend, so I am going to close this thread. Thanks for your comments all.

Grace and Peace,
D. Thomas Lancaster

D. Thomas Lancaster | June 4, 2008 2:19 PM