Gnostic bunk.

In Gnostic thought, the God of the Torah is considered a cruel demigod (the one above it [heaven]). According to these words, God will pass away.

Gnostics thought the material universe was evil.

DTL replies: OK. Anyone else?

Steve Petersen | January 9, 2008 11:00 AM

well I missed the first round so I will jump in for the second.

I have taken some of the sayings apart so I can give each one equal attention.
1) Heaven will pass away and the one above.( in Jewish tradtion ther are several layer of heaven. the first will is a barrier that will be removed at the end of the age. The second most likely is what we make of our lives on earth, and that will pass away too.

2)The Dead are not alive. Those who are in sin even though they are living they are really dead to the spirt and to good deeds other wise they hang on to what the world has to offer as if there is nothing more to life.

3)The living will not Die. those who have a faith in Messiah and are doing works or rightness and Torah study.
those are the ones who are really living.

4)In the days you consume what is dead. Going back to what you have left. When you become a beliver you make a conscience choice to return to the past life or other activies that you think will give you life are more related to a death.

5)You made what is alive. Humm I will take an educated guess on this one.Lets' say I am out partying and even though it is really death spritually to me I think this is life so I made it alive

6)When you dwell in the light what will you do. Light exposes anything that was in the dark. so hiden sins will show up out of the darkness. and then we can either change or continue in darkness, it comes to our choice.

7)On the day when you were one you become two. there are two spirits in each person, one will prompt to do evil and the other wants to do what is right.

8) But when you become two what will you do. At the time of death you will be standing in front of G-d and most likely looking at your self and the good and evil that we have done in this life.

Summery:-) There is both good and bad in each individual, we need to decide witch we are going to feed, by studing Torah doing works of charity and being lights to the nations. Or we can decide not to change and act as if we are living even though we are not.It is never to late to change and we have the free will to make that deceision.

PS. If someone knows of a lap top I can buy let me know
Shalom and Blessings Mary

DTL Replies: Very creative. Nice work, but I am pretty sure the original intent of this saying is on a different track. Anyone else want to try?

Mary C | January 9, 2008 12:37 PM

Honestly, parables are not, and have never been, my strong suit.

But I am reminded of The Master's words in Matthew 5 and in Luke...

"It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Torah to become void." Luke 16:17

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away." Luke 21:33

The references to what is living and what is made to live remind me of John 6:33-35. "For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." They said to him, "Sir, give us this bread always." Yeshua said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst."

And the light? If the lamp is the mitzvah, then the light that it shines is the Torah, nu?

Two becoming one and then becoming two...what will we do indeed?

At least for now, if there is any authenticity to this passage at all, I would have to guess that perhaps Saying #11 is about the coming judgement and this section conjures up images of the Master separating the sheep from the goats.

Or it's all phony bologna.

Crispin

DTL Replies: Nice work. It forces you to think. This one is not a parable. This is an escoteric teaching.

webbmd | January 9, 2008 2:38 PM

Jesus said, “This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away. The dead are not alive, and the living will not die. In the days when you consumed what is dead, you made it what is alive. When you come to dwell in the light, what will you do? On the day when you were one you became two. But when you become two, what will you do?” (Thomas 11)

I think what is being said here is about worldly idols (in a way)

"This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away" I think refers to what we see here as important...ie...homes, cars, money (material objects of lust and want)

The dead are not alive = people that are spiritualy dead or not putting God first (or at all) in life are likened to the physically dead. The living will not die = we as believers in Yeshua are going to live forever in the kingdom though our physical bodies may be dead we live forever.

In the days when you consumed what is dead = believing false doctrines that lead away from Yeshua, spiritually dead doctrines.
You made it was is alive = you treated it as an equal to sound Godly, biblical doctrine. (saying Hinduh or Budah is on equal grounds with Torah/Christianity.)

When you dwell in the light = when you are in the presence of God (judgment)
When you were one you became two = seperating ourselves from God. Believers falling away.

DTL replies: These are all good and creative interpretations.

jay | January 9, 2008 3:13 PM

I went through all this back when I lived with a Gnostic in the 90's. It doesn't sound like Yeshua to me at all. Fact is, Judas was actually picked to be a real live apostle of Yeshua. No one disputes that. That means he had all the annointings of that too. Yet, we know for a fact that Yeshua said Judas went to perdition. And Paul records problems with Mark, most likely the apostle too. I do not doubt apostles could fall. Whether the real apostle of Yeshua recorded as named Thomas wrote any of that book or not, it does not matter to me. It does not jibe with the rest of Scripture. That's all I need to know.

DTL Replies: You are correct Angela, it is Gnostic, and it is bunk, but there is no reason to even entertain the notion that it really represents the work of the Apostle Thomas (Peace be upon Him).

Angela | January 9, 2008 3:51 PM

I'm going to have to agree with Steve. It sounds like gnosticism to me. (Now I'm gonna feel bad if it turns out to be authentic! ;o)

DTL Replies: Don't feel bad. Maybe its authentic Gnosticism.

Michael M. | January 9, 2008 4:52 PM

Yes, it is Gnostic. But it still has a meaning (albeit false), and here is my interpretation:

> This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away.

Everything comes to an ultimate end.

> The dead are not alive,

Those who are unenlightened, although they seem alive, are not alive spiritually.

> and the living will not die.

Those who are enlightened, although they appear to die, remain alive spiritually.

> In the days when you consumed what is dead, you made it what is alive.

People who are alive eat dead meat, which is incorporated into their bodies and becomes alive. (Implied: But this is no longer the case for those who are dead.)

> When you come to dwell in the light, what will you do?

When you reach death, how will you fare considering your state of enlightenment? (Implied: So be certain to achieve spiritual enlightenment now.)

> On the day when you were one you became two.

When you are alive, your entire being is united. But soon you will die and you will be separated into body and soul.

> But when you become two, what will you do?

(Notice how "becoming two" is parallel to "dwelling in the light.")

When you reach death, how will you fare? (Implied: So be certain to achieve spiritual enlightenment while you are alive.)

DTL Replies: We have a winner!

Yes, this is definitely one of the Gnostic sayings from the apocryphal Gospel of Thomas, and no, it certainly is not an authentic saying of Yeshua. It reflects 2nd Century Gnosticism's constant obsession with duality (spiritual vs. physical) and its riddle-style of communicating "secret knowledge."

It is also possible that Steve's interpretation that the one of above heaven who passes away is supposed to refer to the demiurge is correct. The Gnostics regarded the Creator God (the one above Heaven) as a lesser being.

Good job Aaron. You have some great secret knowledge skills! The rest of you made some valiant efforts too. Thanks for playing.

Aaron Eby | January 9, 2008 7:51 PM