I think the attitude of FFOZ is good and Im actually myself also attending a church on Sunday as theres no nearby Shabbat fellowship. For one, it teaches me to be gracious and two; isolation is a big danger as it is a position that is hard to maintain in the long run.

Yet I do have a question which relates to the future, what if I have children and would attend a church. Every Sunday after church I would have to deprogramme them as it were; to get all the wrong teachings out. Wouldnt this be very confusing for a child?

Blessings,

Daniel

I have found that people will tolerate a Toraholic for a while, but once they realize they can't change your mind they start to get mad. It's like you're okay as long as they think they can change your goofy ideas, but when their best arguments fail, the sanctuary starts to get mighty chilly.

I recommend caution, especially if you have children. You may be able to discern when to say "amen" to what the preacher is saying and when to keep silent, but your child will only hear the "amen".

If you want to test someone's sincerity when they claim it doesn't matter which day you keep holy, try inviting them to your Sabbath worship. You may find that their concepts of grace and brotherhood only go so far.

Sometimes the best we can do is to be a kind neighbor and not get goaded into any worthless arguments.

MJ

I long for fellowship with someone like-minded, but I am sure Adonai knows exactly where I am. For 5-6 years I have been focused on the deep value of the "Old" Testament, the Sabbath, and the far-reaching importance of the Law--God's Word. Before this I was taught in good Independant Baptist and Brethren ministries. Out of necessity, I still attend church and keep Sabbath which does make the schedule a bit difficult at times.

Among my "church" leaders and friends I promote your hard work...ffoz's excellent materials; what I like to refer to as, "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth!" I am convinced that believers will all one day have the same mind. Yeshua's mind. Maybe when Yeshua sets up His Kingdom, those who seek to know His mind now and already practice the Kingdom life (as much as possible) will be on Yeshua's Training Team for other believers. FFOZ teachers will be at the fore-front!

Blessings and Thank You!!!

If I had no Shabbat Service to attend, I know I would need a fellowship of believers. It would be very tricky, but I think it "represents a balance" as you said.

When we first became Torah observant we tried to continue in our Sunday church as well as our new congregation. Had we not been brand new parents, or not had kids, I think we could have kept that up. But having to deprogram ourselves and realizing how much we didn't agree with, our little girl came to mind. Like someone said, they are hard to reprogram. And it didn't seem very honoring to the Pastor to constantly dismissing his sermons, again not something I'd really like to pass down. Once they realized we weren't only attending there, we definitely felt a change. That was the hardest for me.

Very good, Boaz.
Thank you for the post and for your good example.

Indeed, pursuing Torah obervance in near isolation has been very challenging and I'm sure that many others have been more successful than I.

Living in a small rural 'Christian' community, my family strives for Sabbath observance privately with rest, reverence, and joy on the seventh day. We fellowship and worship corporately on Sunday mornings with our congregation/community. Fully aware and in total agreement with you that, as the first day of the week, Sunday is a day for work.

Sadly, Daniel K., our Sunday experiences are often inconsistent with Torah and our path of Discipleship, yet that has actually provided some good opportunities to talk about those inconsistencies with my children. The trick is to vigillantly and consistently speak/teach/train-up in love, not contempt...easier said than done.

My personal experience (like many others) has been one of growing up in the traditional church then later feeling as if I had been lied to for my whole life after begining to understand the inseparability of God's Torah and Grace through Messiah's Love...my hope is that through this decision to not leave the traditional church, perhaps my children will never have that experience, because they will grow-up balancing in the tension with both a hymnal in one hand and a siddur, God willing, in the other.

Shalom,
Crispin
South Dakota

Hi Boaz,

I enjoyed reading your post and I do understand your heart in wanting balance. However, my personal opinion is, that attending a Sunday church creates confusion in the minds of my children. It really is an entirely different theology and perspective on Scripture. I do feel we need to not burn bridges with Christian churches or friends who are in the Christian church, but to participate with them is just something our family can not do.

We've had several experiences lately that I will briefly share. One was several weeks ago when our family visited a non-Torah observant Messianic congregation. The book store was in full swing on Shabbat and several conversations were overheard of people from that congregation heading down the street to restaurants for lunch. This is in direct contradiction to what we are trying to instill in our children regarding Sabbath and other mitzvot. At this point in their lives, it's just too confusing.

Another recent experience was at a large Christian church in our area having a "celebration of life" for their pastor who had died. The whole service ended up being worship of the Christmas holiday, with lots of Charsmatic hollerings, etc. going on. Again, not the environment I want my children in.

It may not be a bad idea to visit from time to time, but on a regular basis, especially with children of any age, it could be a very bad thing.

We have such a fleeting time with our kids; I think it's important to closely control what they are exposed to, especially those of a spiritual nature.

Jeri Murray

If someone can remain in a church and make a real difference, then good for them! However, for me and my family, church is not an option at all. I cannot go because I believe this shows that I am in agreement with the system and I am not. At best, it would be pretending so I can try to persuade others to leave the church and practice Judaism. I just can't do that.

Of course, my theology is more in the Jewish camp on the big issues than many here at FFOZ, which automatically makes me cut off and a heretic to the church anyway. I consider their 'gospel' to be a false gospel and a false messiah anyway, so it is of not matter.

I do care about Christians, but I struggle with relations with my own extended family who are Christian, without going to church.

Andrew

It was definitely easier to attend a Baptist church when my boys were on the children's side. When they moved over to youth, they started really feeling left out. Ski trips over a weekend, going out to eat after service, surprise pizza or other food at youth gatherings, fund raisers on Sabbath for mission trips, doing work for older people and disabled people on the Sabbath. Biking excursions on Sabbath. Some of the activities were very good, but they just conflicted with what we felt we should or should not do on the sabbath. When we finally decided to leave the church, the boys were fine with it. They were tired of feeling left out. We live in the center of town, so we definitely are able to outreach here. Neighbor kids come over all the time. One son volunteers at the Habitat for Humanity Restore, and the manager is Jewish. We study the torah club on Friday nights and tell others about it. Sometime we have people join us, but mostly people are busy Friday nights. I still feel a little guilty not going to church on Sundays. My husband works all week and when we started taking the Sabbath and doing Sundays, we never seemed to get things done. We now use Sundays to catch up on projects or go out and have fun. It think if people are able to stay in the churches and not compromise, it is a wonderful witness!

While it does concern me that my son not be re-taught by sunday school teachers or his BSF teachers - ultimately, I believe G-D is glorified when we dispense truth as parents in the midst of some of the untruths expounded by the modern church.

The Torah movement among believers in Y'shua has the weight of evidence on its side. That as well as G-D's promised blessing for those who meditate upon HIS word in order to do it. (Josh 1:8)

I need the above to be true because I don't have the luxury of "quitting" church - even though, at times, I wish that I could.

My Wife is not in agreement with me about submission to Torah as believers in Messiah.

It breaks her heart when I make a stand to submit to Torah - and that breaks my heart. As with anything there are glimmers of hope for me: We read the Torah together on Shabbat along with our son. And She graciously indulges my insistence that we celebrate the festivals.

So, we still attend an Evangelical Free church. She feels comfortable there. She's comfortable with my son attending there as well.

The question then arises: Should I then protect my wife's heart or my son's mind? Should I worry that the influence of the Christian Church we attend will have a deleterious effect on my son's theology? Or should I "put my foot down" with my wife when it comes to Sunday church?

I think that going to church while difficult and uncomfortable at times, is useful in bringing Torah to believers. At least, I think this must be true for me.

Actually hearing what I believe to be a misguided sermon or hearing my son spout anti-torah ideas forces the issue of the great commandment with me!

How can I demonstrate patience? When persecution is coming from the enemy's ideas, how do I respond? Some may have the luxury of running away, I do not!

What is the greatest or weightiest command? First is love for G-D and second is Self-sacrificing love for others.

My love for G-D is true. My heart's cry is "Lord, forgive me - a sinner!" This being true my next response is how to demonstrate love to my family. Which ultimately demonstrates the most love for the Father.

Maybe instead of running from Christian church, that environment will inspire your relationship with the Almighty. Maybe your true Messiah-like love will inspire others to investigate Torah.

Remember, the shadow that submission to Torah casts is of things to come the substance of which is Messiah Himself! (Col 2:16-17)

No one is going to be brow-beaten into submission to Torah. It is a work of G-D and his love and favor.

It's this kind of patience exhibited by our Master to his disciples when they eat the grain or when they don't fast. The learned men of the day couldn't understand why Y'shua would pick such ignorant and unworthy men.

One can also see it exhibited by Paul the Apostle - he doesn't insist on circumcision for the new believers lest they assume that circumcision gains them entry; lest others assume they are becoming Jewish somehow by that act.

I side with the Apostles who did not insist on circumcision but rather that the fact that Moses would be taught in the synagogue every week in every community is enough. If we can keep teaching and speaking Torah truth, G-D will fight His own battles.

I'm trusting that He's big enough.

Bless His Name,

Paul

Insightful post Boaz,

As a family, we're still wrestling with the "either/or" versus "both/and" issue ourselves. We've always seen ourselves as both learners and missionaries, disciples and sent-ones. We love and long to fellowship with our brothers and sisters in Messiah, wherever they gather. But as we see, it's not always that easy, especially with children.

Before stepping away from instituional church almost 8 years ago, our experience was mainline evangelical, bible-believing, suburban megachurch seeker-sensitive, Willow Creek-like. Several years into our post-church era, we were visiting family, getting ready for Sunday morning service. My young son said in all seriousness while hurrying to get dressed, "What time's the show?"

Now that we're living more rurally, away from the unlimited exposure Chicago offered, I want our family to be a bridge where we can. In our case, we're now leaning toward maintaining our messianic congregation affiliation while returning ourselves to some "occasionally-regular" church-folk exposure, entirely for the relationship factor. Now that we're more grounded in what we believe, I feel okay about this, but not entirely certain. If we do decide to go this direction, it will be an interesting experiment that I'm eager to attempt.

I have agree with those that say attending a Sunday church is sending a mixed message. And I've seen folks drop Shabbat because they just don't have time in the week to "do" both, and their Sunday church just feels so comfortable.

There are a lot of 7th day Sabbath keeping denominations out there where folks could attend if they don't have a messianic group to meet with. (Seventh-Day Adventist - who also keep kosher so you can eat at their potlucks, Seventh-Day Baptist, Seventh-Day Church of God, Seventh-Day Mennonite, etc.....)

Personally I didn't come to messianic belief from a Sunday keeping church, so the idea of attending one just seems very foreign to me.

It would seem that your approach is right. Paul himself said that he wanted to be all things to all people. Although he never compromised his stance on, or following of Torah, he did make sure not to put any unnecessary roadblocks in the way when it came to relating to Gentiles, especially Gentile believers.

Our approach has been to observe Shabbat as a family. Sabbath for us is a day of rest (no work, no homework, very family/relational focused), and we make sure to gather together to discuss/study the Torah together on that day (my kids call it "Bible Time").

Sunday mornings are spent with my faith community, where I serve as a teacher. The leadership is well aware of my perspective on the Torah, and I believe our family's approach to "live it, not force it" is one reason many are interested in learning more. We also have a mid-week Torah study, where many are coming and learning about the Torah.

Just one man's thoughts

For us, attending church on Sunday mornings currently benefits our souls and our 18-month-old son more than, say, repeated trips to Target or the grocery store or some other secular option. We are starved for community, especially of those who love Yeshua.

This morning, in fact, we attended a new church for the third consecutive week, a near-record for us. It's a small, storefront, non-denominational church with a variety of ages and colors of people who value children in the pews--a rarity in churches these days. Everyone is genuinely warm and friendly, and they are seeking to support and love and encourage each other as best they can.

Anymore I'm beginning to think that we (our family) must take our perfect ideal faith community, and if we don't have it, find each of the parts wherever we can...even if they are in different places. For us that means church on Sundays and conservative synagogue on Saturdays.

When our son is old enough to be confused by the whole thing, I trust that our conversations with him will help him understand the imperfect situation in which we find ourselves.

Boaz,

I respect you work and your opinion, but I strongly disagree with attending Sunday services.

I think it poses a slippery slope for us and our children when we attend Sunday Church services. Where does the compromise end? Our kids will make friends with other kids they invite eachother to birthday parties, Christmas parties, Easter dinners, will want to go hang out on Shabbat etc. We will have to continue to be the bad guys trying to supress our kids from having "fun".

In the Channuchah Revolution, we don't want to compromise one bit. Let's not inadvertently cause our future generations to be weakened by compromise, but strong Torah observant disciples of Yeshua. What fellowship does light have with darkness? Sunday Christians to not wish to obey the commandments and therefore the Truth in not them. I agree with the notion that we keep our ties, but we can do it without compromising our walk. My family participates in bible studies that are not at a church to represent the Torah community.

Those are my thoughts...

Shalom Brother Micheal,

Your post was beautiful bro! To answer your question, I think that going to church on Sunday while keeping the sabbath can represent a balance, if one is grounded in the scriptures, in faith and assurance of Messiah.

I believe that one choose the route of keeping sabbath and attending sunday services; that they must first keep the sabbath as it is commanded, and go to sunday church with a clear conscious in faith towards Messiah, and a mindset of compassion, humility, tolerance and kindness towards those at the sunday service, understanding that this where these believers are at that particular point of their walk in their journey of faith.

Not only will that person be dealing right and clear conscious towards God and man but they will also very well be an example to believers who may want a deeper understanding of what it is to keep torah in Messiah

I would be totally lost in a Sunday church. The local Bapist bookstore had at one time not allowed me to shop in their store because of my religion. I could stand inside the store while a clerk would look for my requested item, as in a Josephus book, or other history item, in which if they had the item, I could walk to the register to pay. After talking to mgt., they decided to allow me in their store to shop. How would they ever allow a Jewish person to worship on Sunday with them?

My family and I stopped attenting our Baptist Church a little over a year ago.

In my opinion, I do not have a problem with worshiping the Creator on Sunday, but I do have a problem with the type of worship that is offered up on Sundays in churches.

It is not just the day---Sunday---that bothers me, but almost everything else that goes with it. The endless resemblence to Catholic tradition, dispensational theology as the underlying man-made philosophy that often comes from the pulpit, all-grace-no-Torah-or-you-are-a-legalist, Calvanism (Baptists and many others), Good Friday, Easter, Christmas, are-you-ready-for-the-rapture?, Greek/Roman style communion, the Church as the bride and "we-are-the-true-church", Israel is made up only of Jews---no other believers, no Jewish commentaries allowed (because Jews don't know who the Messiah is), church is a business (I was a deacon of mine and money has a way of stinking things up), your not under law but don't forget to tithe, 9 commandments are OK but the other 604 have been nailed to the cross thankfully, we're having a porkroast potlock today--care to join us?, and the list could go on and on.

Don't get me wrong---I love those people in there, but I don't want to go back into "Egypt" to worship with them in their way. I do not say this to them---it sounds terribly judgmental and mean, but I am just being honest---that's where I was for 30+ years. I am no better than anyone else, but YHVH is very clear in Scripture as to how he feels about Israel adopting the worhip practices of the Gentiles.

I miss them, and I will continue to pray for them and join YHVH in calling them out.

I was in intrigued by this blog.I started out attending both sunday church & a messianic congregation.Now 2yrs. later I could tolerate church no longer.They would thank G-D for his sabbath & I would cring knowing sunday isn't his sabbath.There were other problems also, a couple whom I'm not sure if they were lesbians.So I left,took my grandsons with me now my husband has started attending with me sometimes.He doesn't want to take the boys,they can't sit still long enough.There are obstacles to going this way but it's worth it!

Thank you everyone for your question/comments. It has been less than a year since our family has become Torah observant. My husband began doing studies about the Sabbath and as he dug deeper, became more aware of how much we had "missed" in the scriptures. At first I was reluctant (especially when he and my sons began wearing the tsit tsit), but thankfully, we are both on the same page spiritually. The issue of church is a big one for me. The church we attended was a small church plant taht began in our home and husband co-pastored. Although my husband was able to let go with less difficulty, I continued to take our 3 children for a few months. The last few times I attended I had trouble listening to the messages b/c they were vague and I felt the teaching was empty. We are considering moving out to the area for other non related reasons but I worry a lot about not having a group of like-minded believers to fellowship with. I have read stories of others who are in "exile" also, but I'm truly concerned about being alone (how do you do it???). I worry that my kids won't fit in anywhere, among believers or non believers. We still have some contact with friends from our church but hven't attended in quite some time. We keep Sabbath and are looking foward to celebrating the festivals this coming year, but it is very lonely for me. As an adult, all of my friends, and my family's friends, have been made through the church. THis past holiday season was very difficult as my family had a hard time accepting our stance on Christmas. I would like to say we will find a church to attend when we move, but it doesn't seem like that is realistic. Even apart from the time issue, I find it difficult to sit under the taching and wonder, which Jesus are they talking about? THe move to beocme Torah observant is still new to me, and I'm not quite sure how I would feel if we attended a messianc synogogue, but as for your question -- it seems keeping Sabbath and attending church is a bit like mixing oil and water - no matter how much you try to mix them together, they resist each other.